Attack speed over-rules release?

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Behealed
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Attack speed over-rules release?

Post by Behealed » Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:46 am

I just bought sunvox. And I immediately noticed something weird. I started a new project, added an FM module, connected it to output, increased the attack value on the FM module, and pressed a key. And what I'm hearing is that if I quickly press and let go of the key, it continues the "attack", until the attack is fully finished, before it enters the release portion of the envelope. Meaning, and if I quickly let go of the key, it continues to get louder and louder, until the attack is done! This actually made me smile, cuz it's just so... Bad lol. Surely there is a way to fix this? I'm stuck on this atm.

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AutumnCheney
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Re: Attack speed over-rules release?

Post by AutumnCheney » Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:28 am

this is normal behavior for the adsr envelope. if you want to have the synth turn off immediately after releasing the key, you can set the "carrier volume" controller to zero after the note off command, or use the velocity2ctl to do this in real time
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Behealed
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Re: Attack speed over-rules release?

Post by Behealed » Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:15 am

I'm playing with an external keyboard so I need the attack / release to behave like other synths. I don't want it to kill the sound instantly when I let go of each key. I need to it switch from the attack, straight to the release, as soon as I let go of each key. But the release can't be instant, I need a gradual release. So it can't just turn off the volume of the entire module. Because I still need it to be polyphonic. Meaning, I might let go of one key but still be holding down other keys. So the module will need to continue to produce sounds for the keys I'm still holding down.

Can it do this?

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AutumnCheney
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Re: Attack speed over-rules release?

Post by AutumnCheney » Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:20 am

sorry, but it can't do that :(

the envelopes don't behave that way
please check out my newgrounds account, i post music and talk to people here: https://autumncheney.newgrounds.com

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Behealed
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Re: Attack speed over-rules release?

Post by Behealed » Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:53 am

Seriously? Are you sure? Are you familiar with ADSR envelopes outside of this app? Because to not switch to release, when you release the key, is not typical behavior for ADSR envelopes. Look it up on any website if you don't believe me. If that's the default behavior for this app, I guess that's okay (still a bit cringe), but I would really find it hard to believe that I can't change it to normal ADSR behavior. This app seems so well made. I might try to email the dev to confirm this if possible, because this is a deal breaker for me, if it can't do a standard attack / release like any other synth would do. I'm not trying to make the whole app behave like other synths, but really critical components like ADSR just have to be able do what they are supposed to do.

Behealed
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Re: Attack speed over-rules release?

Post by Behealed » Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:07 am

Hold up now. I just noticed that the other sound generators have normal-behaving ADSR envelopes. Only the FM modulator is having the weird behavior that I described above. So now I'm thinking it really could just be a bug that I found. Sent email to dev, guess I'll keep my fingers crossed and hope and these are just bugs that can (and will) be fixed.

Behealed
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Re: Attack speed over-rules release?

Post by Behealed » Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:42 am

Anybody know if the dev is still active? I emailed him about 24 hours ago but no reply yet.

Just a quick update regarding my issue:
At this point, I believe I've found two different bugs in the FM modulator. Both of them are on the 2nd ADSR (the envelope for the modulation). The first bug is what I described above. And the second bug is that it attacks almost instantly on the low end, and slower on the high end. Both of these bugs appear to only occur in the 2nd ADSR envelope, only on the FM module. I'm waiting for the dev to let me know if these are bugs or not, so I can make a decision about whether to stay with sunvox and wait for a bug fix, or look for another similar app... Because I need the FM module, but in its current state it is basically unusable with these bugs.

philipbergwerf
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Re: Attack speed over-rules release?

Post by philipbergwerf » Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:44 pm

@Behealed: I had sometimes the same in the beginning but I learned that sunvox is working differently in some ways then you would expect and that there is a philosophy behind it. Before talking about bugs in any software you need to know for sure how the software is supposed to work. So a better question would be: Is it supposed to work that way? and if so why? Probably you will get a clarifying answer because the people are surely willing to help.

I found it also very strange that attack first is fully happening if you release the key. But it's actually more simple/backtobasics this way. I am personally not very experienced in FM synthesis but I know you can also use the generator for frequency modulation to make more advanced configurations.

take a look at:
https://warmplace.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4210
https://warmplace.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4801

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NightRadio
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Re: Attack speed over-rules release?

Post by NightRadio » Sun Aug 16, 2020 7:59 pm

Hi!

In SunVox there are four types of volume envelopes.

1. Analog Generator: Attack+Release. The attack immediately goes into release as soon as you release the key. BUT this only works when controller "Sustain" is ON.

2. Generator, SpectraVoice, Kicker: Attack+Release. The attack immediately goes into release as soon as you release the key. In any mode.

3. FM: ADSR. Here is the only mode of operation for both envelopes: all stages of the ADSR are played in full, i.e. you can't immediately jump to Release. But you can simulate the behavior you want by combining two envelopes (1st with long attack, and 2nd with short).

4. Sampler: freeform envelope + "Volume Fade Out" parameter (in the Editor).

Additional envelope modes may be added for Analog Generator and FM synth in the next updates...

And the second bug is that it attacks almost instantly on the low end, and slower on the high end.
Do you mean low and high frequencies on the spectrogram?
This is just a result of the modulation envelope.
When M.Attack is 0, you will get the full saturated (modulated) spectrum immediately.
When M.Attack is max, modulation turns on smoothly, so the upper harmonics appear later than the fundamental frequency.

ibim
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Re: Attack speed over-rules release?

Post by ibim » Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:54 am

the problem with all methods of envelopes that i have tried, even with sampler is that no behaviour is like usual envelopes

Code: Select all

normal envelope:	sunvox envelope:
#.				#.
				 ..
				 ...
				 ....
#.				#.
#..				#..
 .				 ...
 				 ....
#.				#.
#..				#..
#...				#...
#....				#....
 ...				 ...
 ..				 ..
#...				#.
 ..				 ..
 .				 ...
 				 ....
 				 ...
 				 ..
 				 .

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NightRadio
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Re: Attack speed over-rules release?

Post by NightRadio » Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:18 am

the problem with all methods of envelopes that i have tried, even with sampler is that no behaviour is like usual envelopes
You can get "normal" envelope in all modules except the FM.
Please see the attached file.
Attachments
envelopes.sunvox
(17 KiB) Downloaded 25 times

ibim
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Re: Attack speed over-rules release?

Post by ibim » Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:28 pm

It's not as noticeable with polyphony, if you try with one voice it becomes more apparent. And sometimes monosynths are needed, for instance for fm-synthesis.
I guess it's two things I'm talking about, one is the resetting of the envelope, the other is that is plays the entirety of of the envelope when sustain is off, I think it's called triggered vs gated. But the first issue is where sunvox differs most from other synths envelopes.

Code: Select all

#.				#.
#..				#..
#...				#...
#....				#....
 ...				 ...
#... <-- Not reset		#. <-- Reset here
#....				#..
 ...				 .
 ..
 .

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NightRadio
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Re: Attack speed over-rules release?

Post by NightRadio » Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:15 pm

It's not as noticeable with polyphony, if you try with one voice it becomes more apparent. And sometimes monosynths are needed, for instance for fm-synthesis.
Monosynth envelope can be created from several modules with LP filter and Sound2Ctl.
I can make an example if you want.

But the first issue is where sunvox differs most from other synths envelopes.
It's not so bad :)
But i'll try to add more envelope options in the updates.

ibim
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Re: Attack speed over-rules release?

Post by ibim » Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:16 am

yeah nah, it's just something i became aware of when doing fm-synthesis, normally i use samples. i really appreciate the effort going into this program, cheers! :beer: :Rose: :beer: :crazy:

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